Whole Spouse

Helping military spouses be their whole and best selves.

The Naked Truth: Brenda’s Story

May 24, 2016 by Michelle Still Mehta 4 Comments

Meet Brenda, an Air Force spouse of 14 years and mother of three. Originally an accountant, Brenda recently re-entered the workforce in the real estate field, but is finding it difficult to fit employment into her military life. The following excerpt is taken from an interview I conducted with Brenda in Germany, asking her about her career journey. In order to protect her identity, I am not using Brenda’s real name. Here is Brenda’s story in her own words…

I got married at 30. I had worked all my life. It wasn’t ever really a consideration that I not work. I had worked through school, worked hard, was a CPA. I paid a lot of money for school loans, and was still paying them off, so (work) was important to me. I didn’t know any different. It was an automatic thing to go find a job. I mean it was pretty normal as to what everyone else in the world does.

But when I had my son I stopped working altogether. We were getting ready to move anyway, and you have a new baby, and you don’t know what you’re doing. So it worked out at that point. We both thought it was important and it didn’t hurt us not to work at that time because I was going to quit soon anyway because of the move. That was the first time that I quit a job to move.

Back then it felt like (I had options). I don’t think there’s very many mothers of newborn babies that want to go back to work right way. It does feel like you’re essentially being gifted something. Especially with my background, working my way through college, and then working the whole time, it did feel like kind of a gift. It was nice not to have to go back to work. Financially, yes of course, more money would have been nice. But it wasn’t the most important thing at that time. So it did kind of feel luxurious. I had options in that it wasn’t necessary for me to go right back to work after I had my son.

And I was thinking, “Well, I’ll stay home for five years. When my son goes to kindergarten then I’ll go back to work, and I’ll go back on my thing.” That’s what everyone I knew did or had to do. So I think that was my mindset. Okay, I’ll have kids. And because of that mindset I had my son. And then directly after that we had decided that we wanted to have another child. And I said, “Well, it has to be now because I have five years.” Maybe I can stretch it to six, but we got pregnant right away and then we had twins. So I had three kids in eighteen months because I was thinking the way I had always thought. When these two kids were in kindergarten I was going back to work.

When I found out we were going to Scott, I wasn’t terribly excited about it. I didn’t even try to work in Illinois because I knew it was impossible just having the kids. So I think that was the biggest assignment that kind of, not devastated me, but kind of changed me.

Not only did we move to Scott, but we ended up moving on base. I had never been around the military, so it was kind of culture shock. And I remember living on base and my girlfriend saying one time, “Oh, you’re one of those people. You know you live on base. You shop at that base store. You shop at that base grocery store. Your kids are going to go to that base school.” I mean that was kind of shocking to me because I always envisioned myself as this really open-minded free spirit. I’ll try anything. And then all of a sudden I’m in my small world. My identity changed, or what I thought my identity was.

When we left New Jersey (for Scott), that was my first thought, “Why do you even try to work, because we’re only going to be there for two and a half years?” You can’t get anywhere in two and a half years. You can’t progress. Who wants to hire me for two and a half years? I’m not going to lie and say that we’re going to be here for six years, because that’s not how you do business. So it changes your mindset, and it changes your motivation, because really can you? Can you do all these things that in your mind you built up for yourself? I mean you can if you want to hit your head against the wall. I was kind of disheartened. It’s kind of like it doesn’t matter how hard I try in this arena, I’m not going to get anywhere.

No matter how many people tell you that motherhood is noble and good and all that, you still have it in your mind like, “Yeah right. I should be doing something more.” I think we always want to see the fruits of it. When you go to work you get the paycheck. You get the accolade. When you stay home you don’t get any of that, not in the short term. You get it when you have great kids at the end. But when your kids are screaming in Wal-Mart and you’ve tried your best and you’re doing everything possible, you just don’t see. When you clean the house perfectly spic and span and in half an hour it’s just as crazy as when you started, you just don’t have those cues that you’re doing a good job, or that you’re doing anything really.

At work, people are looking at you to do your job. And when you’re at home, you’re trying to get people to look at you. People are constantly critiquing your work or looking at your work or praising your work or criticizing your work. They’re always looking. But when you’re at home, you’re trying to get someone to acknowledge that you’re doing something of worth but no one’s looking. Maybe your husband looks every once in a while. Maybe your mother-in-law looks every once in a while. But really no one’s looking.

The other thing is that our husbands have such interesting jobs. No matter what their job is they’re well-traveled. They’re doing something interesting and brave and noble. And not that you’re competing, but that’s always very interesting to people. And nobody’s really interested in how many diapers you changed. When you’re not working I think a lot of people assume that you have nothing to say or nothing to offer. I got tired of that too. It’s like, “Where did you fly today or how is it down in Abu Dhabi or Djibouti?” All these exotic interesting places that no one gets to see or know about. And then, “Brenda how was the mall today?”

(During) the first assignment I didn’t know (what this would be like). I knew that we moved, but I didn’t realize about the jobs, and I didn’t realize about my changing. That was just dumb on my part. I mean you realize that things are going to change. But, I really didn’t know. This is really hard. I always thought that I was a really strong person. I moved to Germany by myself. I’m independent. I’m fine. And yeah, I think it’s hard. It’s harder than anybody can imagine.

I have a little bit of resentment. I mean, there’s just no question. It always falls to me. There’s no question of who’s going to take care of everything, who’s going to get the dishwasher fixed, who’s going to all those things. I don’t even ask my husband anymore. If something’s broke in the house I figure it out. If I need something moved, some furniture, I figure out how to move it. I don’t wait, because I get frustrated waiting. I’m sure it hurts my husband’s feelings, but I always tell him, “I can’t depend on you. Not that I can’t depend on you, but I can’t wait for you, because then I’m just too frustrated. I get upset because you’ve been gone. For example, I’ve been wanting to move this piece of furniture that’s too heavy for me, so I’ve waited for four months. And now you’re home and you’re still too tired or jet lagged for two more weeks to move it. And every day that you’re home I’m looking at this piece of furniture thinking how I’ve been waiting for four months to move it.” It’s just easier for me to get a hernia and move it, and that’s what it is. Instead of looking at it I’ll call four girls whose husbands are also gone, and we’ll move the furniture. So there’s just not a question of who it’s going to fall to. It’s always going to fall to me, because you have this job that I don’t want to say is your excuse job, but it is. It kind of gets you off of any responsibility at home until you want to jump back in. I don’t have a choice to jump out and in. I always have to be the leveling figure, the one that makes everything happen and everything smooth at home. And not that that’s bad, but there’s no chance of me getting a real job or a career.

So the Andrews (assignment) is when my twins, my youngest kids, went to kindergarten. In my mind, they’re in kindergarten, so I was going to try to do a little something. The Williams Sonoma job was the hardest job I’ve ever had. And it was not because of the work. It was because I was trying to figure out how to squeeze it all in. I was trying to figure out how to still do all of my stuff that I needed to do because it’s established that I do all these things now, that I cook, clean, garden, take care of the kids, do the homework, and all these things. That’s my established role at this point. And now I’m adding 15 whole hours a week, but it was very hard. It was very hard to put those little hours in. Even though the kids are in school, that 15 hours a week takes away from all those responsibilities that I’m in charge of because he is working. So those fifteen hours a week took away from picking up the stuff.

It was devastating to think that I can’t (do this). I mean, in my mind I’m thinking I used to work 60 hours a week. Are you kidding? It’s devastating to think that I don’t even have 15 hours a week that I could pursue something, that all of my efforts go to the care and the support of other people. That’s okay, but at some point you wish that you had some support. Everyone talks about, “Oh you guys make great money in the military.” But it’s not great money if it doesn’t allow me to have a job. So you’re paying for two people really, which he works enough for two people.

It still changes my whole attitude and my whole belief in what’s possible. It’s very sad for me that you can’t do anything really. It’s tough as I’m quitting another job because of this.

Brenda begins to cry…

It’s frustrating. Like, the Hallmark job, all I had to do was place cards in the slots in the grocery store and order more cards. I think those jobs were something to do, to talk to people and get out and see what was going on after being with babies for five years. And the frustrating thing is that doing even these little jobs wasn’t possible. That was the devastating part.

I was angry that my husband and his pursuing everything for our country didn’t leave me 10 hours a week to place cards in slots. I think that’s what it comes down to. It’s always feeling like that you have to be the one in charge, or the one that does everything for your family to the point that you can’t have a little 10 hour a week job. That’s the issue that I have with my husband, not that he can do anything about it.

When you got to Germany, what were your hopes and expectations about working?

So I started working in January, and it’s a busy job. I mean it’s a very busy job. My kids are now in fourth and fifth grade. So I was thinking they should be a little bit more independent. It’s okay. I have a telephone from nine to six that I answer, and I work from nine to three. And so pretty much I don’t do anything outside of that. But the problem here is that we have so many people visiting, in-laws and that kind of thing. And when (my husband) has time we’d like to travel, which is kind of the point of coming here and giving our kids that experience. But it’s a great job. I really like it. It’s one of those things where it’s fulfilling. I talk to all different people. I get to do some marketing. It’s really a great job, but my husband still sees my role as that support role. So when his parents come and he’s on a trip for work I’m still the one responsible for taking care of everyone when they come. So when you have people coming every two weeks, and he’s getting deployed for six months, there’s just no way for me to do a job.

How did you come to the point of deciding you couldn’t do this job?

No, it wasn’t my decision. I think my husband is so used to me being around and not working that he really doesn’t want me to. I mean he really doesn’t like it.

Even though this job was his idea in the first place?

It’s the reality of me working every day, having a phone, and not everything in our house being perfect, because it’s not anymore. The floor’s not always mopped because I’m working. Then I pick up the kids and we do homework and we go to baseball. Then we come home and I throw something together for dinner. So we’ve had a lot of problems because he doesn’t like it. It’s not running the way he thinks it should run. And he’s a good guy. He’s totally not like one of those ‘60’s guys, but I think it’s been established through our marriage. And it’s different now because he’s never had to do anything. He’s never, not once, cooked a meal. He does other things, but he’s never been in our kitchen.

It’s so stressful. Obviously it’s easier if I don’t do (the job), because I’m doing a lot. I’m working very hard at home with the kids and at work because our life has determined that my husband doesn’t have any role in our home life and the running of it. So it hasn’t changed. I’ve just added a job. So I am tired. I remember someone said when I got married, “Establish the way you want it to be before. Don’t mow the lawn if you don’t plan to mow the lawn for the next 40 years.” Now I wish I would have listened to this tidbit of advice. And it’s frustrating for me. But now I really truly feel as if my role is to be the support, to make sure that my husband gets someplace in his career, wherever he wants to go, and that my kids get wherever they want to go in their lives, which is what I would want to do for my kids anyway. But somehow with the husband thing I’m getting a little bit more and more resentful as I see that it’s so one-sided. There’s that expectation through the years that we promote his career to my non-promotion of anything I want to do. And I love him. He’s a great man. He’s a really good guy. It’s just the establishment of the life. You do what you have to do to make it work. And that’s what it’s always had to be. We’ll see.

I just don’t feel like I’ve had any control over the development of my life. It’s just like I said. You just follow and do what you have to do to make everything work. So, I feel like you don’t have any control. And you don’t have really any say or any play with where you can go or what you can do. You feel limited.

You know I don’t know if I have energy (for working). I really think I’m just exhausted. I think I’ve banged my head against the wall. And I think that at this point, 15 years later, it would take so much energy to get back into something, a profession, that I don’t know if I have the energy after promoting his career for (so long). I’m tired. I’m exhausted and I don’t have anything to show for it personally. I mean we do. We always used to laugh at those women that wore their husband’s rank or whatever. But now I’m thinking, “She worked just as hard at it as he did so why shouldn’t she?” Not that I’d ever do that because it’s kind of weird. But I can see how it happens. I can especially those commanders’ wives. My experience with not doing what I wanted to do work-wise was because of our family situation. But there are those women that don’t do what they could be doing work-wise because of their husband’s career. And I don’t know why they wouldn’t wear their husband’s rank. It’s not an easy life. I mean I’d still choose it because I love him, but hmmm… Would it have been a bad thing if he was a doctor or an electrical engineer? I don’t know.

“All Work and No Fun” – Learning to Thrive as a Career-Oriented Military Spouse

March 11, 2016 by Michelle Still Mehta Leave a Comment

You know that old proverb, “All work and no fun makes Jack a dull boy?” If you have a full-time career, and are juggling kids and military life, finding time for fun may be an elusive thing. You might think fun is in those small moments with your family or in those precious few minutes you get to yourself at night when the house is quiet. Or maybe the workout you squeeze into your busy day. But no, that’s not really what I’m talking about. Do you really give yourself the luxury to play? In her book, Overwhelmed, Brigid Schulte writes about the experience of being a stressed out working professional and admits that she reached a point when she could not remember the last time she just played.

I can relate to Schulte’s story.

I pride myself on someone who was born serious, always a hard-working achiever. As a military spouse, I’ve always sought out others like me, people who cared about their careers and meaningful work. I tried to steer clear of that stereotypical military spouse who seemed to live for bunco, lunch bunch and shopping trips.

I remember coming face to face with this traditional carefree spouse stereotype when I attended a new spouse orientation at my husband’s war college. At the time, I owned my own consulting and coaching business, but I made time during my workday to attend the event and meet my peers. I was flabbergasted when the orientation speaker (who also happened to be the only man in the room) launched into a speech about how lucky we were to be there. As he described it, our husbands were being groomed to become the next generation of military world leaders, yet we were incredibly lucky to be the spouses because our only care in the world was “to have fun!” I doubt I was the only employed person in the room, yet the stereotype was made clear. If you are a military spouse, your life should be about frivolity, fun, and socializing, while your partner does the serious stuff. I quickly decided this group was not for me and went back to work.

Fast forward a few years and I find myself in Hawaii. When we arrived last summer, I was prepared to set up shop and start coaching and consulting again, which I did. But I also found that every person I met would routinely ask, “What do you do here?” And they didn’t care about what I did for a living. They wanted to know what I did for fun. Do you sail, surf, dive, paddleboard, hike? When I introduced myself at a spouse event and mentioned my business, I heard someone in the group mutter, “Work is over-rated.”

Was this that stereotypical military spouse speaking to me? Or was it my shadow self whispering in my ear? Is it possible to find time for both work and play?

Recently I read a great book by Beth Cabrera that helped me make sense of all this. In Beyond Happy, Cabrera says that the key to thriving in life is finding both happiness and meaning. Happiness comes from feeling good through play and joyful activity or relationships. And meaning comes from doing good through living your purpose, doing good work, and making a contribution to the world. Both feeling good and doing good are essential to thriving.

So now I’m experimenting.

I work a little less in Hawaii than I did in Washington DC. And I set aside every Monday morning to play golf. At first I felt guilty about golfing on a workday, but I’m getting used to the idea that fun isn’t something to apologize for or be embarrassed about. And it is pure delight to wake up on Monday morning and head to the golf course instead of my desk for a change.

So you might be thinking about now, “Must be nice, but I can’t do that.” You may not be able to change your work schedule or move to Hawaii, but if you are a stressed out professional with plenty of meaning but not much pleasure, stop and think about what you can do. How can you embrace that inner military spouse who just wants to have fun and be a little more like her? Find one fun thing you can do for yourself each week, and do it without apology. You’ll be glad you did.

Michelle offers individual and group coaching for career-oriented military spouses. Contact her for your complimentary coaching session.

The Elephant in the Room: Why Rethinking the PCS System is Critical to Military Spouse Employment and DoD’s Talent Strategy

December 14, 2015 by Michelle Still Mehta 2 Comments

The Elephant in the Room: Why Rethinking the PCS System is Critical to Military Spouse Employment and DoD’s Talent Strategy

I was excited when I heard about Secretary Carter’s Force of the Future initiative, focused on developing a new talent strategy for the military. (Yes, I am a bit of a wonk and I do get excited about things like policy proposals.) I was also hopeful that there would be something in this Force of the Future that would make the military lifestyle more viable for families with two breadwinners. That was my hope anyway…

But as I scrolled through the details of the announcement, my heart sank. Where was the focus on military spouse employment, or the acknowledgement that the current permanent change of station (PCS) system is a major barrier to spouses being able to maintain and build careers? I am not the first to point out that Carter’s new plan does little to improve life for military families, but I want to highlight this issue in particular. Ignoring a problematic PCS system is a huge missed opportunity in my book, and here’s why.

First, the facts all line up. Multiple studies have shown that frequent relocation is one of the most significant barriers to spouse employment and earnings. (And if you live this military life, you don’t need a research study to prove that to you!) We also know there’s a correlation between military spouse employment and retention of the military member. In other words, spouses who face employment challenges because of the military lifestyle are less likely to support a decision to stay in. Finally, although the average military assignment has gradually been getting longer in recent years, the average cost of each PCS continues to climb, making each move a more costly part of the budget in increasingly tight times. Adding this all up, the current PCS system impedes spouse employment, impacts retention, and costs the taxpayers a lot of money.

So why not address the elephant in the room and take a fresh look at the relocation policy?

My opinion is that frequent relocation has become so much a part of military culture that most people in the military community, including those in leadership, assume it cannot be significantly changed. It is treated as a given, a fact of military life that is central to our culture. But what if it were simply one variable, a feature of the way military work is designed, but malleable like a piece of clay that could be molded to fit the need?

I don’t pretend to be an expert on military operations by any means, and I know there are good operational reasons for the relocation policy. At the same time, the current way may not be the only option, or even the best way. If we want to have a serious conversation about talent, then we can’t ignore the lost potential of unemployed and underemployed spouses, or service members who cut their military careers short to make their family lives work.

Moving around the world may be a big part of military culture, and part of an adventurous lifestyle that many military families find attractive. But it is also problematic if we are going to move beyond the traditional single breadwinner model that is no longer the norm. If DoD is going to keep up with the times and attract the best talent, we need to be willing to name the elephant in the room.
Michelle is a consultant, coach, and researcher specializing in military spouse employment. Contact her at michelle@stillmehta.com.

Challenging the Myth of the “Excuse Job”

October 16, 2015 by Michelle Still Mehta Leave a Comment

We all know how unpredictable military life can be, and it’s a huge reason many military spouses don’t maintain a career. But here’s the thing. Some of that unpredictability is real and some of it is a myth I call the “excuse job.” Actually, a spouse I interviewed in my research (Brenda) coined this term when talking about her husband’s job, and it has stuck with me ever since. Brenda describes the phenomenon this way: “The excuse job kind of gets you off of any responsibility at home until you want to jump back in. I don’t have a choice to jump out and in. I always have to be the leveling figure, the one that makes everything happen and everything smooth at home.” Sound familiar? The military has a long history of maintaining this narrative of the all-consuming military lifestyle. After all, that is why we spouses are the ones who keep the home fires burning, right? That may be true much of the time, but the trick is finding a balance between supporting your spouse’s career while not letting it become a blanket excuse for not supporting yours. Let me explain what I mean through an example in my own life.

Trying to get my husband to come home for dinner on time was a battle I waged for years. I was more than willing to be a part-time worker and be the one to get kids from school, help with homework, and get dinner on the table. In return, I wanted an equal partner to be there for dinner and bedtime and take on some of the evening household work. It was an agreement that mattered to me, but often wasn’t kept when my husband got absorbed in his work and stayed late at the office. Some friends told me to let it go, but it gnawed at me. This wasn’t a case of getting called off to go fight bad guys at the last minute. I understood when there was a real emergency or something mission-critical he was working on. I’m talking about an ordinary day at the office, being able to set a reasonable boundary between work and home life, and coming home on time to fulfill your responsibilities there.

When we went to a communications workshop for military families, and I brought up this problem in our marriage, the facilitator lectured me on the importance of being a military spouse who has to understand the demands of military life. I was furious that she pulled out the “excuse job” card to explain away everything, and essentially let my husband off the hook!

In the end, my husband and I continued to work on this and now have a system that works pretty well. We aim to have dinner at a standing time, and he knows that if he can’t make it he just has to call and tell me before dinner time comes. On my end, I’ve agreed that I won’t get mad as long as he remembers to call.

This may seem like a ridiculously minor example, but the little things matter. Recently I ran into a friend whose husband and mine are in equivalent jobs. When she lamented that they never have dinner together because she never knows when her husband is going to be home, I shared my experience.

She seemed truly dumbfounded that there could be a solution to her dilemma. She had fully accepted the myth of the “excuse job” and had already written off the possibility of regular family dinners. In her case, I think this also played into her calculation to take a break from her career as well.

After all, if everything is unpredictable and you can’t count on anything from your spouse, how could you possibly add your own career to the mix? This kind of thinking and buy-in to the “excuse job” myth keeps a lot of us on the sidelines rather than pursuing the careers we dream of having.

For me, knowing that I have a partner in family life that I can count on is critical to my ability to work and maintain a business. It’s been a few years since we were in the thick of dinner negotiations, but that experience laid important groundwork for me to start up my own consulting and coaching business. Now when I have client engagements, I can count on my husband to be there to cover family responsibilities. And we know how to negotiate when we both have conflicts over work and family.

A few months ago, I had an all-day offsite with a client and my husband knew he had to do school drop-offs that morning. A few days before my offsite, when he called to say he now had a meeting on the same day, I fought the impulse to take care of it for him. This was his commitment to figure out, and we discussed the options, including sitters to call if he couldn’t change his meeting. It worked out fine, and it made me feel good to know that his job doesn’t always have to come first.

These kinds of negotiations aren’t easy, especially when two demanding jobs are in the mix. The path of least resistance is often for one person to stay home and take care of the household, and that works for many couples. But so many spouses tell me how much they long for a real career, and surveys consistently show that the majority of stay-at-home spouses want to be working. So what’s the answer? There is no silver bullet, but challenging the “excuse job” is an important first step to practice with your spouse. When you reject the “excuse job” myth, you are asking your partner to meet you halfway, to validate your work, and to create a true partnership that is big enough for two thriving careers. Anything less than that is inexcusable.

Michelle offers individual and group coaching for career-oriented military spouses. Contact her for your complimentary coaching session.

Managing the Seasons of Your Career

September 11, 2015 by Michelle Still Mehta Leave a Comment

September means Fall is in the air. Depending on where you live, leaves are turning, the breeze is football-season crisp, and sweaters are ready to come out of the closet. Even here in tropical Hawaii, the stores are stocking up on Fall clothing, and I am beginning to see a few boots scattered among the flip-flops. Perhaps seasons are as much a state of mind as they are weather patterns and dates on a calendar.

In much the same way, I think of careers as a lifetime of seasons. Especially for military spouses who grapple with the constant change of military life, careers are often not a traditional progression of continuous work, culminating in retirement. Our careers ebb and flow with military and family life, blossoming at times, while sometimes going into long periods of hibernation. Many of the spouses I work with as a coach find comfort in this metaphor of seasons, because it offers them a different model for career success. It is not an all-or-nothing achievement, but a patchwork quilt that is crafted with care and creativity, one season at a time.

Here are 5 tips for navigating the seasons of your career:

Take a look at what’s most important during this season of your life. Is this the time to focus on career, be home with kids, or try something you’ve never done before? Your priorities may change with the seasons. Recognize what season you are in now and plan accordingly.
Look at your own life calendar and try to gauge how long you think this season will last. If this is the season to stay home, how long do you want to plan on that? If you want to go back to school, what is the timeline? If you are a typical military family that moves every few years, planning for this chunk of time can be an ideal season to work with.
Be aware of what’s going on in the environment around you. How well do your plans fit the season you find yourself in? Are you still wearing your winter boots when everyone else has donned bikinis? For example, if you find yourself in a location with few professional jobs, you may find it’s the right time to take a hiatus or go back to school. It’s not only about your plans, but also about what fits your life right now.
Include your spouse in the journey. Just like planning your summer vacation, talk with your spouse about your career plans for the season. What do you need from them to make your plans work? What support are they willing and able to give you? Make sure you are both on the same page before embarking on the next phase of your adventure.
Once you’ve made your plans for the season, jump in and enjoy it. Don’t spend your precious time looking back with regrets or what-ifs. The good news is that the next season is right around the corner and anything is possible.

Michelle offers individual and group coaching for career-oriented military spouses. Contact her for your complimentary session.

Changing Military Culture One Conversation at a Time

August 13, 2015 by Michelle Still Mehta Leave a Comment

Did you know the majority of military spouses are active in the labor force, either currently working or seeking employment? Although it’s a fact that most of us have a career of some kind, the military culture often still clings to the stereotype of a working military member and stay-at-home spouse. Sometimes, as spouses we even perpetuate this myth by avoiding our own careers as topics of conversation. As a result, we continue to preserve a culture that doesn’t accurately reflect reality, and leads many of us to feel isolated and unsupported.

I’ll give you an example from my research with Air Force spouses. Roberta is a midwife by background, and was a newlywed to her military husband when I interviewed her. As a newcomer to the military community, she was eager to make friends and meet other spouses, so she joined the local spouses club. But she found herself bewildered by the experience. She wondered why other spouses often asked about her husband’s job, but never her own. She came away thinking that either she was the only one with a career, or that having a career was somehow unacceptable. Why else would it not be mentioned in ordinary conversation? My answer was, “It’s not part of our culture.” Although it may seem like a minor oversight, this interaction took an emotional toll on her.

She says, “I just felt sad. It just felt like I wasn’t important, like I just didn’t matter.”

Roberta’s story is a great example of the power of conversation. The words we exchange with other people shape how we see ourselves, other people, and the communities we engage in. I’m a big believer in the idea that change only happens when we begin to talk differently about something. In effect we change organizations and culture by talking a new norm into existence. The things we say or choose not to say craft our reality and send a signal to others about what we value, what is unimportant, and what is taboo.

So, what do you do if you find yourself in Roberta’s shoes?

My solution is to turn the tables and ask the other person the very questions I wish they would ask me. “What do you like to do with your time? Tell me more about yourself.” Not only is it a great gift to take interest in someone and see them for who they are, but it also creates a culture of inclusion, one conversation at a time.